Hey, look over here

As exciting as this forum is, I don't think its out of line to suggest that perhaps it could be turned into something else? I don't have anything in mind but it couldn't hurt.

OK

Let's start a dialouge about the much needed removal of the muslim cult from civilized society.

Start first with making islamism in all it's form illegal.

How about we take it one step further and work towards getting rid of all religion?

Bilbo Baggins wrote:How about we take it one step further and work towards getting rid of all religion?

Before we try that we should give every liberal a plastic bag and roll of duct tape to suffocate themselves with.
It will reduce their carbon footprint and help the environment.

Before we try that we should give every liberal a plastic bag and roll of duct tape to suffocate themselves with.

Do you actually ever have a coherent argument? I haven't failed to notice that the others who post on this site never seem to respond or recognise your vile statements. I think they realise the inappropriateness of what you say, but are too gutless to speak up because technically you're on their side. I don't expect a change in this either, just making an observation.

Bilbo Baggins wrote:

Before we try that we should give every liberal a plastic bag and roll of duct tape to suffocate themselves with.

Do you actually ever have a coherent argument? I haven't failed to notice that the others who post on this site never seem to respond or recognise your vile statements. I think they realise the inappropriateness of what you say, but are too gutless to speak up because technically you're on their side. I don't expect a change in this either, just making an observation.

Do you always talk like a pansy?

Do you always talk like a pansy?

Clap clap clap. Well done, another brilliantly argued point. My old incorrect beliefs have been vanquished by your rational and clever arguments. I surrender oh most Conservative one, and vow never again to question God, Republicans, or the Almighty Dollar (in that order).

Bilbo Baggins wrote:How about we take it one step further and work towards getting rid of all religion?

Why would we want that?

damn, remember i went through that phase ? - denial, frustration, etc ah the good old days - sigh -

bilbo - this is the kind of guy beer is, love it or leave it

Bilbo Baggins wrote:

Do you always talk like a pansy?

Clap clap clap. Well done, another brilliantly argued point. My old incorrect beliefs have been vanquished by your rational and clever arguments. I surrender oh most Conservative one, and vow never again to question God, Republicans, or the Almighty Dollar (in that order).

I'm not repbulican.
Frankly, I don't like repubbies.
And my money is mostly invested in the Euro of late.

But you're right about not questioning God.

Popov wrote:damn, remember i went through that phase ? - denial, frustration, etc ah the good old days - sigh -

bilbo - this is the kind of guy beer is, love it or leave it

And now popov and I just accept each other for what we are.
And we'd probably have a hell of time with some good wine, beer and a bar full of chicas!!!

bilbo - this is the kind of guy beer is, love it or leave it

I don't have to love it, not one little bit. But I can easily ignore it if no one else seems to care.

Why would we want to get rid of religion (in its form today at least)? Because it is a superstition. That is; 'a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like'. Religion is so divisive; the majority of all wars have been fought on religious grounds, and even today we see a clash of religions - the Christian West with the Muslim Middle East. I actually think I'm a pretty tolerant person with these kind of things. You can pray to whoever you want, as long as you don't force your religion on me, and as long as decisions made by the state are not religiously motivated. Thats a brief summary of my feelings towards religion, feel free to question me further.

How would you feel about a religion that said men should fertilize as many beautiful girls between the ages of 12 and 17 as possible?

Ah, an atheist. bb did you know that atheism is just another religion where you get to play God for yourself. How small and boring that must be. Now for myself, my religion is a personal thing and I'm not much into what I see as political or corporate religion but I do have to wonder why this rise in militant atheism lately.

I also wonder why most atheists are socialists. Is it because socialism seeks to replace God with an all powerful State, a all knowing and controlling government? Both Stalin and Hitler saw God as such a threat to their fascist governments that they outlawed any religion except the State.

bb, how has religion "kept you down"? How has it "cramped your style"? Does it prevent you from aborting lots of little babies, or maybe that whole "thou shalt not kill" thing just sticks in your craw? Maybe a pervert priest touched you in a bad place so you blame God? Personally it doesn't matter to me what you believe as long as you don't try to force your non belief on me.

KSigMason wrote:

Bilbo Baggins wrote:How about we take it one step further and work towards getting rid of all religion?

Why would we want that?

So, are you just going to ignore me?

Apparently.

iluvfreebeer wrote:How would you feel about a religion that said men should fertilize as many beautiful girls between the ages of 12 and 17 as possible?

It appears no one else is familiar with this particular tenet of muslim haddith.

So, are you just going to ignore me?

I thought I answered you in my post.

bb did you know that atheism is just another religion where you get to play God for yourself. How small and boring that must be.

The only place I ever got bored was at church actually, I guess feats of resurrection and walking on water just didn't appeal to me. I would describe myself as agnostic actually; I don't know whats up there, but I know humankind definitely doesn't have the answer.

Hitler saw God as such a threat to their fascist governments that they outlawed any religion except the State.

Hitler actually wasn't against religion, he himself is quoted as saying; “We have . . . undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” He was no socialist either. Not that I'm defending him, just keeping things accurate. Stalin was no socialist either (not by my definition), the Soviet Union was more a state capitalist economy.

or maybe that whole "thou shalt not kill" thing just sticks in your craw?

For a country that still has the death penalty thats an interesting point to make.

Personally it doesn't matter to me what you believe as long as you don't try to force your non belief on me.

When have I tried to force it on anyone? I think I've repeatedly tried to make clear that I believe in a society where people can choose to worship or not. I may have hopes of a religion-free society in the future, but I have no right to make that decision for other people. Democracy and free choice in everything I say.

Bilbo Baggins wrote:Why would we want to get rid of religion (in its form today at least)? Because it is a superstition. That is; 'a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like'. Religion is so divisive; the majority of all wars have been fought on religious grounds, and even today we see a clash of religions - the Christian West with the Muslim Middle East. I actually think I'm a pretty tolerant person with these kind of things. You can pray to whoever you want, as long as you don't force your religion on me, and as long as decisions made by the state are not religiously motivated. Thats a brief summary of my feelings towards religion, feel free to question me further.

You had edited your post since I last visited, or I must have missed it. It's been a long week. Either way, lets look at it. To your justification, I say 'have faith' and without 'a belief in God then no one can be truly bound to an obligation or promise'.

I'm all about freedom of religion, but to think the whole government should not make decisions based on religion is folly. It is so intertwined with our daily lives that you would be cutting something out of your life. Denying your faith, compromising oneself is wrong. Plus there is nothing to say that individual States cannot establish religion.

1st Amendment wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

10th Amendment wrote:The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

Plus there is nothing to say that individual States cannot establish religion.

I don't know enough about the US Constitution to argue this point, but I think a secular society is very important. When one religion has precedence over another, then conflict arises. Best to keep all religion out of areas like education and government I feel.

but to think the whole government should not make decisions based on religion is folly

True, but these decisions should not be the promoting of one religion above others, or onto people who may not have any faith at all. Tolerance of religions should be taught, even a study of different religions and their practices, but no one should be forced to celebrate a religious festival, or take part in religious activities, that they do not believe in (in the public arena anyway. Private schools and organisations obviously have some leeway in what members are required to do)

Progressive socialists always seem to hate religion, it gets in the way of their agenda. The Constitution sort of gets in the way of the PS agenda too so they had to redefine the amendment promising freedom OF religion into freedom FROM religion in 1952. The entire nation has gone severely downhill since that day. So even though between 80% and 90% of all Americans consider themselves Christian the 10% to 20% who are atheist, agnostic, or of another religion (Muslim, Jewish, Druid etc.) run the show. It was actually about 1952 that the thought of majority rule came under attack in the US too.

When did NZ decide to let the various little fringe of society groups control your nation?

the 10% to 20% who are atheist, agnostic, or of another religion (Muslim, Jewish, Druid etc.) run the show.

How do they 'run the show'? What methods do they use to do so? Do druids still exist in any significant numbers?

When did NZ decide to let the various little fringe of society groups control your nation?

Fringe groups don't control my nation; our electoral system just allows the numerous voices of society to be heard (I presume thats what you're talking about). Lets remember that at our last general election 80% of the vote still went to the two main parties. But what's wrong with a little pluralism? It keeps things in balance and doesn't allow one ideology to completely dominate (unless people overwhelmingly decide to vote for parties on one side of the spectrum, but they haven't yet). For my mind its a real democracy. I can't say I agree with the two party system. And anyway, the only fringe groups in NZ are the fanatical religious ones; we like our secular society.

Bilbo Baggins wrote:

KSigMason wrote:Plus there is nothing to say that individual States cannot establish religion.

I don't know enough about the US Constitution to argue this point, but I think a secular society is very important. When one religion has precedence over another, then conflict arises. Best to keep all religion out of areas like education and government I feel.

Yes, because there is no conflict now.

Bilbo Baggins wrote:

KSigMason wrote:but to think the whole government should not make decisions based on religion is folly

True, but these decisions should not be the promoting of one religion above others, or onto people who may not have any faith at all. Tolerance of religions should be taught, even a study of different religions and their practices, but no one should be forced to celebrate a religious festival, or take part in religious activities, that they do not believe in (in the public arena anyway. Private schools and organisations obviously have some leeway in what members are required to do)

No one should be forced to learn about or tolerate a religion they think is wrong.

Yes, because there is no conflict now.

Firstly, the US is far from a secular society, even if technically you are supposed to be. Secondly, there will always be conflict, but it will be reduced people don't argue on religious grounds.

No one should be forced to learn about or tolerate a religion they think is wrong.

So if I think all religions are wrong, I don't have to learn about or tolerate any? In that case, maybe I should be lobbying for all religion to be banned.

Bilbo Baggins wrote:So if I think all religions are wrong, I don't have to learn about or tolerate any? In that case, maybe I should be lobbying for all religion to be banned.

That is your right, well, I don't know about New Zealand's rights/freedoms, but in America yes, that is the citizen's right.